Jeff Kofman is the co-founder and CEO of Trint, an automated online transcription service designed specifically for print, broadcast, and digital journalists.
Jeff spent decades as a broadcast reporter for ABC, CBC, and other networks, never intending to become the CEO of a tech startup. But his decades-long need for a better solution to his everyday transcription requirements drove his career in an unexpectedly different direction relatively late in life.
In this interview, he calls in from his office in London to talk about what he has learned about leadership and entrepreneurship since becoming an accidental CEO.
For more information: https://trint.com​
What follows is a computerized transcription of our conversation. Please excuse the typos!
Frank Felker 00:32
Thank you, Dude Walker. Yes, indeed. I am Frank Felker. Welcome back to Radio Free Enterprise. You know, there are a lot of different things I like to talk about on the podcast. I like talking about technology. I like talking about how businesses and industries arise to meet problems solve problems for people. I like talking about entrepreneurship. I like talking about venture capital. I like talking about growth companies. I like talking about people who start their first business and especially people who start their first business what I would call Boomer printers, people who start their first business late in their career. So most of all, like talking to and learning about creative and interesting people. And in today’s program, I get to bring all of that to you. Today, I’m bringing you the CEO and co-founder of Trint. Jeff Kaufman. Jeff, welcome to the program.
Jeff Kofman 01:26
Great to meet you. Great to be here.
Frank Felker 01:28
Thank you so much. There’s so much interesting stuff for us to talk about what I’m going to start right at the beginning. What the heck is trimmed? Who does it help?
Jeff Kofman 01:37
You know, frankly, the short answer is that trend solves the biggest pain in the rear of my career. There’s nothing like innovation to solve a pain that you’ve lived. And that’s Trint, I’ve been a broadcast journalist started in Canada, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation spent almost 20 years at CBS, and then ABC news and in the US, and then over here in London, England, where I was London correspondent for ABC and I still live. I spent most of those my life all of that career transcribing the interviews, speeches, news conferences, in the 30 years of journalism that I worked, when I worked as a broadcaster and that routine amidst all of the innovation that I’ve witnessed since I began in the 1980s. And television, that routine of having to actually get at the content of interviews like this, for example, and rewind to the top because we used to use mini cassette recorders. Now we use our iPhones or digital recorders.
But the bottom line is, you can’t write a story. As a journalist, if you don’t have the accurate words that were spoken. That means you hit play, you hit stop, and then you go over to your software, it used to be a typewriter and you type it. And then you go back and you hit play and you hit stop. And it’s that incredibly tedious routine. If people are astonished that we still do this as journalists, and I just happened to cross a team of really brilliant developers who had done a prototype of a transcription search manipulation tool involving manual transcription with a text link to the audio and I saw it and I thought, wow, could you put automated speech in there? Anyway, Trint uses artificial intelligence to get at the content of your recordings. It works for journalists, but it works for a lot of other people too.
Frank Felker 03:22
Well, let me let me break this down for our listeners. So in essence, Trint is a transcription service that takes audios and videos, I assume, and turns the content within them into text as well. Is that the essential aspect of it?
Jeff Kofman 03:39
Yeah, but we go further than that. What we do is then we glue that text to the original audio that you’ve given us making it easy to search in a way that simply doesn’t exist or didn’t exist, and until Trint was born, so so you know, you have an hour-long interview, you want to find the reference to Minneapolis, you know, it’s kind of halfway in there. Well, the only way to find that is to listen to it and go No, no, I think was before or maybe go ahead. Anybody who’s dealt with recordings knows what I’m describing. With Trint. you print it, you get it back that hour back in minutes, you search the word Minneapolis, bang, there it is you hit play, and you can listen to it. If the automated speech to text makes an error, we give you the ability to fix it. So that you’ve got your content, you can time it all within a minute. That’s a process that would take anyone manually anywhere from 10 minutes, 20 minutes, half an hour.
Frank Felker 04:33
Sure. And I you know, I’m not a broadcast journalist, but I certainly have run into the same problem many times with other applications of interviews that I do and then to get transcribed just as you described, somewhere in the middle or anywhere. In the interview. The person that I interviewed said something really interesting. It is such a time consuming and tedious process and frustrating to find that nugget and cue in on it so is one of the things that I think I hear you Saying is when I’m looking at this text that Trint has that’s been printed, that it’s also given me a time hack. It’s time coded. Is that right?
Jeff Kofman 05:09
By the way, I’ve got to tell you, I love that you’re using Trint as a verb because I’ve just got to give you a little digression here. When investors ask us, where’s Trump going to be in four or five years, what I’ve learned as a first time entrepreneurs, they want to hear, it’s going to be worth hundreds of millions. And of course, I’m a journalist, and you know, I try to keep my feet grounded on the soil. So my response is, where’s Trump going to be in five years in the dictionary, we want you to use trend, noun and a verb. And the really fun thing is we’ve been building we spent two years building trend. It’s been in the market since September 16. Our users talk about renting and their trends, because it’s a new concept. So so that’s the digression. You had a question?
Frank Felker 05:55
That that was fantastic. I’ve made many the investor presentation. And those are some tough rooms. And what a fantastic answer, where do you want to be in five years in the dictionary? That’s the kind of thing that rings the bell of a venture capitalist.
Jeff Kofman 06:10
Yeah, is actually they know, because let’s face it, you know, making people smile, and exuding confidence. Those are both good things to know. As a first time entrepreneur, those are both good buttons to hit.
Frank Felker 06:23
You know, I want to I’m going to go down that, that path with you right now. So, you know, here you are at this stage in your career, you said you started in television in the 80s. You’ve been doing it for 30 plus years, we can infer where they put you along the chronology of life journey. And here you are your first time in business how does that literally how I’ve given you the therapist question, how does it make you feel is that invigorates you frighten you? What How are you feeling right now?
Jeff Kofman 06:52
Listen, I had you know, for the person I am, I had the best job in the world. You know, when I was a 21 year old kid starting out in television, all of those boxes that I wanted to take see the World Report, the biggest stories the world faces some of the most interesting challenges, learn, meet interesting people grow. I did all those things. I reported from 40 something countries, I covered Latin America, for ABC News for 10 years, I covered the Iraq War, the Arab Spring, you know, I have seen the worst of horror, and the most thrilling of exhilaration documentaries on blue whales and Patagonia and blue footed boobies, nickel, Africa, I’m a lucky guy. But you know, 33 years of broadcasting, even the best job becomes familiar. And I just wanted a new challenge. I’ve got a lot of energy, a lot of curiosity. I didn’t plan this, I got to be honest, I call myself the accidental entrepreneur, I, I just stumbled across some some developers who’ve done this brilliant prototype of a transcription tool, I saw the potential to take it even further and to collaborate and create what is today, Trint. And that’s what we did for me. You know, I’ve said for a long time, I’m the most unqualified person on the planet to be doing this. I don’t quite get away with it that now, we you know, we’re growing, our revenue is very strong. We have 10 employees, we’re hiring five more, as we speak up we’ve just hired to in the last week, we’ve just finished a very successful multi million dollar funding round. So I guess, you know, we’re doing a bunch of things, right? I have to say, career 2.0 in my 50s is a blast. It is hard work. It’s much harder than I ever would have imagined. It’s a huge amount of responsibility. Every day I wake up and I have questions thrown at me that I just have no idea what to how to answer. And it is. It is really, really tough. But it’s fun. And it keeps you fresh. And and you know, you don’t want to just coast in life. And I boy, when you run a startup for the first time at any stage, there ain’t no coasting.
Frank Felker 09:03
Now, there certainly isn’t. And I’ve done that myself, but it was 1520 years ago. So I’ve always referred to it as a young man’s game, because of the hours that are required. But it sounds like you’re pretty used to working long hours. I wanted to ask you a couple of questions. Because you know, I’m really looking out for our viewers, our listeners, and the questions that they have in mind. I try to put myself in their seat. So there’s a couple of things that you’ve been very successful at. One is marketing. I think a part of that is because you just had such a dang great solution to a widespread problem. Can you just speak to in broad terms, your sales growth, what the what the growth curve is look like? And what you
Jeff Kofman 09:44
know, I think there are a number of factors. I think that it helps a lot that I have lived the problem that we’re solving, it gives us a lot of credibility. I remember the head of innovation at the BBC saying very early On, she heard about what we’re doing when we were not ready to show this to the world. And she said, I’d love to meet with you to hear what you what Trint is about, because I’m really curious. And I resisted. And she said, Don’t worry, I won’t hold you responsible. And when I met with her, she said, you know, in all of my years overseeing innovation at the BBC, I’ve never met a solution for journalists, technologically created by journalists. And she said, it gives me great confidence that if a solution can be found, you will be the one who can find it. And, you know, it’s not just me, it’s a team, we have a brilliant team here, who have worked really hard. But there’s no question, you know, they used to tease me that I was beta tester number one, you know, Mine isn’t the only user scenario a kind of a terminology of startups that entrepreneurs will be aware of. But am I there are other user scenarios different from mine, but mine is a fairly universal one for journalists, academics, people in corporate communications, finding content with recorded within recorded talk easily, excessively low cost quickly, all of those things. So, you know, that’s helped us a lot. My I know, there’s no question, my profile, having won any covering the Arab Spring, that kind of stuff gives us credibility. But as you say, ultimately, it is the product that has to sell you and I think what’s really thrilling about our solution is that it’s so easy. You don’t need to go to the help pages to make it work. It just does work. It does exactly what you want it to. And that’s the best way to sell. I mean, what’s really fun is to wake up each morning and look at our social media, our Twitter account at Trint HQ. And we just got a lot of love. I mean, I love on Valentine’s Day, one of our users sent us a accent at trade HQ, will you be my Valentine, and then somebody else tweets. I can’t imagine going back to life before Trint. I mean, that’s better than any marketing we could do. Because when you get a tweet like that, from someone you know, or trust, that’s not a sales job. That’s an endorsement. And that’s really how we’ve grown so quickly. We’re only in our seventh month of revenue. And, and we’re seeing significant double-digit growth every month. You know, it’s humbling, because, you know, every month, we start over again at zero, and I wonder if we can,
Frank Felker 12:29
yeah, that’s a little different than getting that paycheck every two weeks.
Jeff Kofman 12:34
And having just, you know, we’re just closing a multimillion-dollar funding round. And, you know, the investors have a lot of confidence in us. And I, I do too, but you know, I would be lying to you, if I didn’t say, Oh, my gosh, you know, this is, this is a big burden to carry on your shoulders to be to keep delivering, but I really believe in what we’re doing. I, we live in a world that is swimming and recordings, you know, you go to YouTube, you go to Google, you’re going to find content that is recorded and not searchable. You go to any news website, pretty much any website, you know, your website, for example, if I wanted to find one of your podcasts in a specific moment, you know, as I know, you got to listen to it and find it. Well, guess what, this summer, we’ll be releasing a trend player that will allow this podcast to be searchable on Google, you can find my reference to any word I’ve said to Minneapolis, which I said a moment ago, you can search that and you can find it an instant, and you can tweet it out, you can put it on Facebook through our interface which you can embed on your website. This is a new language for accessing recorded content. And that’s what there’s a real hunger for so you know, we seem to be onto something big I I kind of use the analogy of a surfer you know, on a surfboard out in the ocean watching a wave rise and speak science is that wave. And it’s been maturing really rapidly just over the last couple of years to the point where you can push it this far.
Frank Felker 14:05
So there’s so many things I’d like to ask you about, I would just kind of want to button up what you said a moment ago that I think the mere fact that what you have is what people need. It’s, there’s an old expression of marketing, you don’t want to have to convince someone that they want what you have. It’s much better to just make it clear that you have what they want. And they and they will come and get it. So I want to go to the next thing then you’ve spoken a couple of times about raising capital. Tell me about your experience with that. I did that as well. I raised $3.1 million in the waning months of the.com era. And it was an extremely painful experience. It was bad timing and I and my business model did not have the underlying value that yours does. But how have you found that experience? How have you found dealing with venture capitalists and investment bankers
Frank Felker 15:00
Be careful what you say that you’re involved with the film. No,
Jeff Kofman 15:03
no, it’s hard work. I find it kind of fun. I mean, they’re smart people, some of them are smarter than others, as you would expect. But, you know, you learn from them all, I think part of what I’ve learned is I, this is our first really big round, we did a smaller round a year ago in two very small rounds early on. And you get smarter you learn what meetings to take, and what not to take, we actually opted because we had a choice, we had a quite a lot of money coming at us not to go with VCs, where if we’re in what’s called a pre series A, and we felt and our board and our earlier investors felt that we would have we’ve done a pretty strong job of being agile and responsive. And using the money wisely, we felt that we could sustain that with more independence, if we didn’t have a VC on our cap table at this stage. You know, there’s some debate about whether that’s right or wrong. But what you actually discover is that even some of the VCs will tell you, you’re smart to wait. So we’re pretty comfortable that we made the right strategic decision, we actually have hit our goal, and we’re actually now deciding how much over we want to go because there’s nothing like a successful fundraiser, to bring in more money when you don’t need it. And, you know, you but you don’t want to be cocky. You know, we live in an unstable political times I’m in, you know, the company is based in England, where we’ve got Brexit with uncertain outcome, the Trump administration, whether you’re a supporter or not, there’s a lot of uncertainty around it. So you know, who knows what could happen to the economy, you want to make sure you’ve got enough. But, you know, I like people. And I respect that even rich people who are some of whom some very rich people that put money in some names that would be familiar with put money in. You got to respect that they’re, they’re voting with their pocketbook and take that seriously. Somebody just told me about a company where they spent $100,000 on box seats at a sports stadium and they were new, they were a startup. What kind of insane, misguided ego would do that with investors money.
Frank Felker 17:18
I wanted to ask you something. Well, I think this is also another benefit of your let’s say, seasoning. Yeah, as being prior to coming to this position. Here’s something that’s interesting to me, it just occurred to me, you’re a professional communicator? Yes, you’ve done what’s your entire life, trying to distill down the essence of a story into a very short amount of time and communicate it to an audience that you have, you don’t even know who they are. One thing I’ve often commented on, as I watch entrepreneurs make investor pitches, is that they believe that the entrepreneur does not understand the investor, they don’t understand their audience. And they don’t tell them what they are looking to find out. They tell the entrepreneur says all kinds of things about what we do this we do. And there’s the things that the the venture capitalist doesn’t want to know. Do you think that your experience as a communicator has benefited you in this area?
Jeff Kofman 18:09
Oh, listen, I’d be lying to you. If I didn’t say yes, I absolutely. I mean, listen, I even with you, I can give long winded answers. I’m aware of that as I’m talking. But the reality is that, that being able to communicate an idea with confidence, with comfort, and and with the knowledge that, you know, I don’t have to make it up. I genuinely believe in this. And I think people say to me, you know, you for a guy in his 50s. Man, you got a lot of energy and a lot of passion. I believe in what I’m doing. I’m, you know, there’s no snow job necessary here. And people who tried our product understand, it’s, it is, in my opinion, the best kind of innovation, it solves a real problem. It’s not creating a false problem. You know, with all due respect to some entrepreneurs out there, I’ll stick my neck out and say that, you know, I’ve been to pitches where people are offering you a wine pairing app that tells you what wine to have with your chicken at a restaurant. That is not a problem that the world is desperate to have solved. And while I wish them luck, I if I make a lot of money, or when I make a lot of money out of trend, I will not be investing in wine pairing apps. You know, training solves a real problem. It allows people you know, we start with media, where there’s a lot of pressure to get more content with fewer resources. And what it means is that journalists, editors, producers, can spend more time producing content and less time being stenographers. That’s a win.
19:41
Yes, no question.
Jeff Kofman 19:42
And I can communicate that.
Frank Felker 19:45
I unfortunately, I wish we could talk all day and maybe we’ll have an opportunity to speak again because so many additional questions come to my mind. I want to talk about another thing that’s on the minds of entrepreneurs which has to do with recruiting and retaining top 10 What have you learned about that through this process?
Jeff Kofman 20:04
So I feel like I should write handwritten notes apology to every boss I’ve ever had. It is really hard managing people, I, this is the first time I’ve ever managed people, I love our employees, I’m incredibly dedicated to them. But I would be lying to you if I said it was easy. I mean, it’s just it’s challenging. You know, my job as a leader, and as a manager, I’ve quickly learned is to is to empower our employees to do the best they can for the company. And in the process, you want people to enjoy the journey. I mean, it’s just not worth it if they don’t. And that’s a delicate balancing act. Anyone who’s managed people understands that and, and listen, not long into this. I’m sponsored here in London at this fantastic Innovation Lab called idea London by Cisco. And I and UCL University College London, one of the top computer science universities in Europe. And they asked me, What do you need, and I said, you know, I’ve never managed people, I need some help. And I took they put me in a leadership and management course, that really helped me understand the vocabulary of how to empower people, how not to micromanage. Just how to understand what motivates people. And listen, I make lots of mistakes. I’m a strong personality, and I know that, but I want to make sure that our employees have oxygen, and have a sense of empowerment, a sense of ownership of their own work. That’s the goal. I think what’s exciting about our team is that everyone shares the same passion for product that I have my, you know, our development developers, the team
Jeff Kofman 21:54
in sales, which is very small. At this point, I mean, we’re just 11 people right now.
Jeff Kofman 22:00
But growing fast. So you know, I think people are looking for an interesting ride with startups. And they, they’d like the idea that we’re obviously they’re enchanted by our seduced by the fact that we’re doing well, revenue is strong, or we’ve just had a successful funding round, but they want to buy into a vision. And I think if you can sell them that it’s just like an investor. You know, you have to seduce in this market, you’ve got a US employees sell themselves or employment prospects. But you know, we as employers have to have to seduce them to and and division thing. It’s the same as with investors that that’s what ultimately wins you over.
Frank Felker 22:37
That’s great, great answer. And I appreciate your transparency about that. I’ve always had a difficult time managing people as well. And I even had years and decades of experience with it. And I still have a lot of trouble with it. Not my not my forte. I wanted to talk now about how we happen to have connected and where you’re going with the product. I did test turned out I was amazed at how fast the turnaround was. And but some of the features that I was looking for, because I’m not a broadcast journalist. We’re not there. I want to say something to you, though, as you were talking about printing this interview, it occurred to me that I’m going to run all my past interviews through trend, because I’m always looking for the snippets that I use, I’m getting ready to launch a 24 hour a day audio stream. And I’m always looking for those little snippets. And I don’t have the time to sit through a 30- or 40-minute podcast times 50. So anyway, I’ll be sending a few shekels your way there, Jeff.
Jeff Kofman 23:37
you’re grateful. Yeah. Just make sure that card is
Frank Felker 23:42
you still have your card. So I’ll be sure that it’s current.
Jeff Kofman 23:45
I’m talking about your credit card. I you know, yes, I
Frank Felker 23:47
was talking about your credit card. Anyway, what can you speak to you did talk about the player, podcast player, are there any other features that are in the future that you can speak to yet?
Jeff Kofman 24:02
I could speak for hours about that, you know, we are on that, you know, that wave of innovation that I was talking about, we are riding a wave of extraordinary innovation in this area, there is a lot of work out there and universities, other startups that has simply not found a route to market. We’re very aware of it, we have a list of more than two dozen innovation, some of which we will build some of which we will license some of us we will work with academics to build. There is an endless amount that we can do here. Because we’re just going to, we’re going to build on this foundation. I mean, what you’re missing, we’re going to have I don’t want to go specifically for competitive reasons into what’s on our roadmap, but I will tell you that I’ve seen some of our products that we built and prototype and then obviously, I’ve seen them I’m involved in them, but some of the things that we have coming out even by the end of 2017 They’re jaw dropping. I mean, I demonstrated one of them to some media execs at one of the big networks in New York. I mean, these were the top people. And they broke into spontaneous applause. And they said, Oh, my God. I mean, they were almost It was almost hallelujah. They said, How fast can you get us this? This is unbelievable. And I can tell you at another network in New York, they looked at us at our content at our, our current player that our editor, pardon me, that we’ve already built. They said, you know, we looked at this, we figured maybe two years, we could build this, but we don’t know that we come out with a product as good as yours. How do we incorporate this into our content management system, what’s called a CMS, which is the core of any news organization. We’ve got a lot to come where we’re listening, we have a development team of five developers right now, we’re literally, we’ve hired two more, and we’re hiring for more. I mean, that’s how fast we want to grow. We want to have 1012 developers here by summer, we have so much to do. And we’re squeezed because the pressures on growth, the appetite for growth, is it’s just huge. We’ve got to scale the team now. And now that we’ve had a successful funding round, that’s what we’re doing. It is exciting. I just don’t know when I’m going to get the sleep.
Frank Felker 26:21
Well, and I’m sure you didn’t get a lot of sleep as a broadcast journalist either. And that’s something I want to talk about, in closing is, what parallels Have you found, as, you know, a fast-moving entrepreneur, relative to being out there in the field in war zones and, and famine-stricken areas and so forth.
Jeff Kofman 26:42
You know, it’s an interesting question. And I’ve sort of inadvertently, I used to give speeches, I used to get paid to give speeches about all of that stuff about being a war correspondent covering the Arab Spring, particularly in Libya, which was my main my main beat during in 2011. And then covering iraq before that. What I found is interesting is that a lot of people asked me that question, and I started talking about it quite a lot. Because corporate audiences are really interested in instead of an unusual parallel, and, and in this case, the parallels are really interesting, and one of them is perseverance. I mean, when you land in, as I, as I did many times, and in a tough place like Libya, when it’s when it when things are falling apart, and you’ve got a deadline and 630, New York time for ABC World News, and you’ve got a flat tire your radiator, blows up in the middle of the desert, one of your drivers flees because he’s frightened. All of those things happen to me, in a matter of hours, the day before the day Gaddafi was falling, August 2011. We were just up the creek everywhere. It just was a mess. You just can’t give up. You just have to say, Okay, how are we going to make error? And it’s just about tenacity, about perseverance, and about focus? Well guess what? tenacity, perseverance, focus, pretty useful skills. For me as an entrepreneur, I would say there are a couple of others that apply that are pretty interesting for me. No one survives and journalism, who isn’t comfortable admitting what she or he doesn’t know. I think that’s a, it’s a basic axiom of journalism. If you fake it, you’re going to get caught out, you’ve got to be able to ask the stupid questions and feel fine about it. And, you know, it’s there’s so many things that come at me that are completely out of my mouth, my range. And I’m really comfortable saying, you know, I’m just not sure. But give me give me a little time. And I’ll figure this out. And that leads to the next part of it, which is, you know, I’ve asked questions for 30 years, and I’m pretty strong and being able to, if I don’t know the answer, and usually I don’t, I know who can help me find the answer, or who can help me find someone who knows the answer. And I’ve used those skills every day for the last two and a half years with trends, finding information, teaching myself informing myself and I would say Finally, I think the thing that’s really, for me most important, or I don’t want to rank them, but one of the most important is decisiveness there every day I am asked to make any entrepreneur in my seat is asked to make decisions. One after the other and some of them you just don’t feel equipped to make but you do your best and I would argue that that indecision is worse than a bad decision because a bad decision.
Listen, I’ve made lots of them. You can learn you can recover and you can move on you hope you can recover but you know so far touchwood we have indecision paralyzes and it’s bad leadership and it people lose Confidence. So you know, you can’t go for perfection, when you’re innovating. When you’re when you’re starting a company, you go for good today and better tomorrow. And you do that by making decisions, learning from them. Not having a blame culture by saying, Okay, what went wrong? One? How do we fix it to what’s the learning here so that we make sure that we don’t make at least this mistake. Tomorrow, we’ll make a different one, maybe, but not this one. So you know, being decisive, not pointing fingers, that those kind of things that they all come out of my experiences journalism, and they applied absolutely, directly here. I guess, Frank, the one thing that I have no experience in which I still find daunting as finance, I mean, I’ve learned and I can read spreadsheets, but I will not pretend that I can mass I’ve mastered Excel. But you know, you surround yourself by people who are smarter than you, who knows things you don’t know. And that’s how you navigate that. But But of course, it’s important to have a baseline. And you know, I don’t have any business degree, I studied political science in Canada 30 years ago. So that, you know, I find that challenging, we’re hiring a finance manager as we speak, and I will be thrilled when when she or he joins us, because it will take a huge burden. But I also get that I I still have to watch the money and make sure I understand it. And you know, you don’t want I wouldn’t be cavalier about that. But but having support is really essential.
Frank Felker 31:30
So if somebody listening is interested in learning more about yourself, or Trint, what is the best way for them to try to reach out to you?
Jeff Kofman 31:40
Um, well, my email is Jeff jeff@Trint.com. Happy to receive emails, I, I really believe accessibility is important, particularly for an early-stage company, all of our users have my email. And I think that they really appreciate at some point, it will be impossible for me I know, to respond, we already have 1000s of users. And sometimes the volume gets pretty onerous, but I really do try to respond to everyone. Because I think people appreciate that we’re not just a faceless company, we’re actually real people who’ve devoted our lives to this and, and I think they give you an extra, a little bit of extra space to grow into stumbled once in a while when they realize that these are a bunch of hard-working people who really are dedicated to making this work. So accessibility, I think for a CEO is a really good thing for the whole team. I encourage everyone to be available. And so you know, happy to answer people’s emails.
Frank Felker 32:42
And it’s just wonderful stuff. I’ve just been fascinated by what you’ve shared with us today. Jeff Kaufman, thank you so much for joining me today.
32:51
Thanks, Frank.
Frank Felker 32:53
Thanks again to Jeff Kaufman. And thank you for listening. Until next time,
32:57
I’ll see you on the radio. He’s the kind of guy who finds microeconomics fascinating. But go ahead and listen anyway. Radio Free Enterprise with Frank Felker.
