My guest today is Joel Bikman, co-founder of HLTH CODE, a nutritional products company in Texas.
Joel is the most effective manager of people I have ever met. And I should know because he was once my boss!
I’m not saying he’s the best manager I’ve ever had. I’m saying he’s the best manager I have ever seen.
In this conversation this I ask Joel about his approach to managing people and how he came to be so darned good at it.
I also ask him about the unique challenges associated with hiring and managing creative people.
When I worked for him he was Vice President of Marketing for a $400 million nutritional supplement company. Under him were 85 graphic artists, video producers, copywriters and event designers and producers – and me!
This is the textbook definition of herding cats. And Joel was the best.
Learn more about Joel’s nutritional products business HLTH CODE
What follows is a computer-generated transcription. Please excuse any typos.
My guest today is Joel Bikman, co-founder of Health Code, a nutritional products company in Texas. Joel, welcome to the program.
Thanks Frank. It is a delight to reconnect with you and to be on your show.
I’m very excited as well. I’m going to try my best Joel to draw that wonder juice out of you on this topic of management. So we’ll see how well I do going along. Now, regular viewers and listeners know that I generally invite business owners and business gurus to come on and tell us all about their business, either their success journey or maybe a product or service they have that’s of value to other business owners. But today we’re going to do something quite a bit different.
Joel and his company are doing some great stuff at health code. Unfortunately, I’m not going to let him talk about that today. Maybe we will if we have a chance or otherwise hope to invite Joel to come back. But today, what I want to talk to Joel about is his level of expertise in managing people.
Joel is literally the best manager I’ve ever seen. And I think I speak with authority on that topic because he was formally my boss and we may well touch on that as well at some point. But we’ve got a lot of ground to cover Joel. I think this is a very important topic successfully managing people. In fact, I think it’s a critical success factor for any business. So let’s start at the beginning.
Where did all this Management wonderfulness that you have come from? I mean where you which is it nature? Is it nurture where you born with it? Is it a skill that you’ve developed? What can you tell us about how you become such a great manager?
Well, I fear that anyone who watches this is going to be gravely disappointed, but you’re incredibly kind. Frank, and I’ve certainly enjoyed my interactions with you. Depending on the resolution of the camera from there you might see that I’m bright red. I I’m, I’m blushing.
Sorry man.
No, no it it’s all good I’m. It’s something that I’ve certainly worked at.
I’d have to say that some of it is instinctual. I I would. I would hate for anybody to think that this can that that at least what I’ve done was 100% learn. I’ve certainly worked very hard at it. I was very fortunate to have wonderful examples and wonderful and continue to be fortunate to have wonderful mentors.
People that.
That I could learn from that I could watch my father being the most preeminent of that. He’s been as much manure for his as long as I’ve known him his entire adult life, and I’ve watched him. And I’ve watched uncles, and I’ve watched my grand father and brothers.
And in another siblings, my sisters.
Who run, but it’s done really, really well and so just been very, very fortunate. But I’ve also studied a lot.
I my undergraduate was in advertising. I went to school to be a copywriter and we learned that I was just not very good at it and so I I went back into advertising management with advertising agencies and went back to grad school so that I could actually learn about business and have just become a Stew.
I have multiple subscriptions to magazines, business magazines with different sorts, from fast company to Harvard Business Review and read a lot of business books.
But so between that combination, Franks is really where I I learned about it from great examples. One mentors I’ve had, and from some consistent running, and I’ve just found that I’ve simplified things overtime to some real core truths that that I’m happy to get into and.
You’re ready for that.
Yes, I would like to get into that and I’m sure people watching or listening right now or like get to the meat of this will you. But for me it’s just such an important overarching concept that you have seen how important management is, what a critical success factor it is.
That it doesn’t come easily to most people. Can you give us an in?
Insight into did you always know how important this was? Or was there a particular thing that happened that made it clear to you that this was something a skill worth developing?
Yeah, I, I think it’d be tough for me to point to any one thing. There’s certainly been a number of instances in my career.
Where it became apparent that the people who got the most out of team.
Were those who served the team and those who worked with the team. It wasn’t this kind of autocratic dictatorship that you see on.
TV you know? Or in the movies about the people who are affective.
They may have fear of their team.
But they don’t have respected it.
And so that servant approach that service.
Concept.
I often fail at it. I I, I hope that no one who watch is. This thinks that I’m perfect in anything that I’ve that I’ve said. I fail all the time.
But it’s the underlying interest in trying to be better and understanding that.
Working with your team working.
Both, both those that technically report in to your structure or your group and those that you can influence positively. That can help you.
It’s essential.
And you get more done with having people who understand what you’re trying to accomplish. Understand that they have set of resources that they, that they are valued and trusted.
That’s when that’s when magic happens, and it becomes such a thrill.
To go to work each day.
Oh well, I’ll stop rambling there, Frank, and let you help me clear it up.
I’m sorry, I’m sorry if I cut you off right there ’cause they were really awesome. Good stuff, let me.
As far as getting into the meat, let’s yeah I want to talk for a minute about my experience working for you at the time you were a vice president of marketing of a multi 100 million dollar company and I came in at the Director level reporting to you and I was just shocked at.
Your approach to managing people you had a large staff of creative people beneath you. I think it was 85 people. Is that right? Is that correct?
I’m not sure it was quite that high, but it was a good number of people.
One it was, you know, an all creative people, copywriters, graphic artists, video producers, event producers and B and you know, it’s it was literally the definition of herding cats. And yet what I saw you doing.
I mean, I actually quoted in this course and I produced about how to hire and keep great people. Is you basically said here’s?
The project I need done, Frank. You got two weeks and here’s all the resources I have for you to and which meant I could tap into some copywriters or some graphic artists or whatever. And.
Do you think you can get it done in two weeks with these resources an I thought about. Yeah I can do it because you’re like OK, well great, I’ll see you in two weeks. You know if something comes up where you need any direction from me or you need more resources let me know otherwise see you in two weeks I’m sure it will be great.
And I was like wow I was just blown away. I’m like this guy, it’s it’s as if he trusts me, you know. And I know from our conversations recently. Trust is a really big factor with you. Could you speak to that, that trust and respect factors?
Well, First off I, I appreciate you reminding me of that story.
So that was that was a few years ago, so.
Glad that I.
I’ve been pretty consistent over the year.
But yes, the core.
Is that people are good and people are smart.
I’ve been surprised on the positive end of things far more than I’ve been surprised Dominic he did this with people by making sure that they understand.
What success looks like?
That they have the needed resources.
And that they also have my trust.
You actually have to try pretty hard to break.
That trust.
And again, that’s mostly from good examples.
In people that I’ve been fortunate to work with mentors both on the business side, in the community and from my religious background, which is very important and influences of course everything that I do. But it’s that people have value, people are good.
And they want to do the best possible job and.
So most of the time when there’s been a failing.
To accomplish the project or work.
It’s typically been my fault where I’ve not provided them the needed resources, or I’ve been unclear. The documentation of the objectives.
Or I’ve not given them enough time or something like that. It’s rarely been that they’ve just done a poor job or took advantage of the situation or the freedoms.
You know, and that that’s something that’s so different. What you just said from what the approach most managers take, you just said it’s generally my fault. Yeah, what a revelation. Very few managers will accept responsibility. I don’t want to paint with too broad of a brush, but.
It’s more rare than not, and yet I could not agree with that approach more. How could I have done better?
Was I unclear on the objectives? did I not give you enough or the proper resources? You know what was? How can we avoid going down this path again? I just it’s unique.
I don’t know, do you think that’s a skill someone can learn changing their mind or changing their attitude?
Well, yes, I I. I think people have an incredible capacity to change for the better. I myself try and do better every day and I fail every day.
And just.
I really try to be as thoughtful as possible at area of my own areas of weakness.
And again, I don’t think that it’s because I’m just projecting my own mindset onto other people, it’s.
It’s some pattern recognition.
And so I think that the average person.
Could just have.
Really just dare to trust someone else.
And you know, in I think that that’s.
It’s important across all of the relationships.
That you have.
With your significant other beginning, the community is neighbors and definitely.
At work and as you and I have talked, and I’m certainly happy to share more of this if you’re interested. Frank, I think that management of people I agree with Clayton Christiansen, who wrote both brilliant article and a book called How Will You Measure Your Life? I think that management has the potential to be the noblest of professions because of the ability to.
Build people.
Wow and so when you have someone come onto your team.
Is your perspective? I assume I know the answer to this question, but you see them as a person rather than a cog in the machine. Would that be a fair statement?
Yeah it yes they.
We can get into, I guess if you’re interested, some of what I call my core.
Values and these are the same. Would like to if you want to start with that here, that’d be great.
Sure, I can go down a huge rabbit hole fit.
There please feel free.
So put me back when you need to, but.
First and foremost.
People have value.
Both as individuals and as professionals.
And you’d mentioned earlier on and I’ll get into this in just a second about.
Where when you and I met, I’ve managed to create it. I was managing mostly a marketing communications team, so everything from as you said from writers, both copywriters, an more editorial typewriters ’cause we had a newsletter in a magazine and other things like that and we had website.
And social media that you know early days of social media and then mid 2000s there. But.
It’s something that is true of every person. Every person needs to be creative.
And so we’ll get that into that just a second. And if you don’t value the person.
You’re not going to be able to get great work out of him regardless, they’re not going to develop and create new solutions for you.
And every person in every role I believe has to be created.
Should be able to come up with new solutions or improved ways of doing things.
I firmly believe that.
It’s so.
The first
Core value is respect.
You may not.
You don’t have to like the people that you work with.
It’s better if you do.
But you don’t have to invite people over.
To you know, do a barbeque every weekend or haven’t watched the game.
To understand that that people are inherently of worth, and so first and foremost it’s respect. The person that they have value as a person and as a professional.
And understand and have grace enough that you don’t know everything about that person, even if you’ve worked with him for a long period of time.
I I say that people carry around this invisible backpack.
That people know that other people never really get a chance to see into that backpack is filled with some wonderful things, some joys and some things that bring them great satisfaction and also things of great disappointment.
Things that make them sad. Things that are unfortunate.
And we would be so much more would be so much kinder and have so much more grace towards individual.
If we were able to to understand what they really the totality of who they are, the good and the bad.
You know, but I can hear somebody or see somebody reacting to what you just said. Like I can’t.
You know, be all mamby pamby with these people. They’re going to run roughshod over my business and they’re not going to do what they’re supposed to do, and you know nothing will ever get done, and I’m going to be paying him a salary to sit around. You know, in the Lotus position, that’s an extreme, and obviously I’m making a joke, but are you able to have that perspective on them and still have people?
Get the job done.
Yeah, absolutely, and so that’s just that respect constant has to come first, because without it you just can’t. In my opinion, you can’t be successful as a manager.
Or frankly, a human. And so you’ve got just at the court. You’ve got to think about other people and try and be.
Kind, so that’s the first one. There are five of them, and I’ll try and go through them much more quickly so that you can ask the needed follow up questions still.
Over with K off, you know me too well schedule, yeah?
But the second for value is is very similar to the 1st.
And it’s an absolute zero tolerance for gossip.
Because it destroys culture.
And culture you say?
Gossip you cannot talk about other people.
And that’s again true. In a family is true in a neighborhood, and it’s absolutely essential in business, people have to feel comfortable, they have to feel safe or they cannot create. And as I said earlier, everybody needs to be creative. So the third thing, then, is replicable processes. And this is where people’s eyes.
Tend to glaze over, but it’s it’s absolutely essential.
If you’re going to do something more.
Than once it needs to be documented.
Unless it’s dirt simple.
And if you ever hope to be promoted, if you ever hope to take any time away on vacation, or you know, even be able to be sick.
You need to teach somebody.
Because if you’re the only one who can do something, then there’s this mutual hostage taking cover the company or for what we leave right. The company can’t afford to let you leave or be promoted and will end up likely paying you more for that position.
But lovely, absolutely detrimental to your development and to your career and so replicable processes are essential.
I don’t know if you remember that that’s exactly what you had me do with the podcast production for the company. Was document every step and it was funny. It wasn’t until I documented it that I realized how many steps there were.
And you know what an involved process? It was an when you and I were recently talking about this and you talked about being able to repeat the process even if you’re not present, my mind immediately went back there and I love the mutual hostage taking. That’s a very vivid analogy. Anyway, please go ahead what?
The next step, sure, so the.
Course and I have to all.
At the time when I developed these, these five core values, this was probably around 2000 seven 2008 when I when I really codified them before they were just a series of thoughts.
In my head.
I stopped to unwittingly over it within the ether, but I believe I stole them from Amazon and but not. It’s not remotely intentionally. It’s possible that that it’s likely it’s from an article or something that I’d read around that time.
Because the 4th and the 5th are to do great work and the 5th is to have fun. And So what? Amazon I think their whole thing their set of core values is do great work, have fun and make history. And so if I was going to emulate.
Maybe not from a culture standpoint. I’ve heard mixed things.
But that’s where I got my 4th.
And 5th and there are only 5, so those of you who are keeping track at home.
And you know can feel you feel.
You know some comfort that I’m close to wrapping that up.
But frankly, I think that please we’re going to say.
Oh, I was I was going to riff.
A little bit on the the do great work and have fun but alright.
Please yeah, please. OK, thank you.
So the concept of doing great work. This goes back to that respect in that trust that when people understand what success looks like when they understand the project and the objectives, they understand what resources they have.
They understand the timing.
That rarely have I been disappointed when somebody’s come back and I’ve asked the question, is this great work?
And I don’t get all the time and that would get obnoxious, but rarely have I been disappointed. In fact, I have more often been delighted when somebody has been. They can’t wait to come in and talk about.
Something that they’ve done.
Either the status or completion of a project, and again more often than not, when the work hasn’t been rate.
And they felt that it was great. It’s because there was a misalignment or misunderstanding and often IE to be self reflective. So when.
People know when they do great work.
99% of the time, if they, if it’s clear they will be the final budget.
Whether their work is great or not.
And then the final thing, the final core value of hafnium.
It’s not last because it’s least important. In fact, as I mentioned earlier.
Everybody has the potential.
It needs to be creative in business.
Whether that’s an accountant, whether that’s somebody in supply chain and certainly with people that are creating.
Um?
Maybe my primary background of marketing communication.
And so.
Having fun is really that lubricant that makes the machine work better that creative machine.
And so for me, you can’t have fun at expensive, great work, but I believe great work happens when people are having fun and that can take place and take shape in many different ways.
But I always told my always told my teams I’m delighted when I see you talking when you’re laughing with one another when you’re learning more about the people that you work with, that can’t be the only thing that happens. Of course there is work and there’s clarity.
As the other core values make clear.
But but it is essential because you spend most of your waking hours at work.
And what a travesty it would be.
To dread going to work.
And rarely have I ever felt that way, even when I’ve been in a terrible mood or I’ve been under incredible stress, strain or deadline.
I’ve often felt better.
By being at work and interacting with people that I like.
People that I’ve invested time in developing a good relationship with.
And it becomes a joy. I mean, these are friendships that endure.
For a very long period.
Of time, I mean you and I worked together for less than a year.
About 12 or 13 years ago, and I still.
I feel very fondly about you because we both, we both invested into that relationship and it was significant and meaningful.
Well I appreciate that and I think it’s clear to anybody watching or listening that you and I have great affection for each other.
Something you just said, though, reminds me of what the overarching topic of our presentation, or at least where I was going with it originally, was the special challenges of managing creative people. Now you just said a moment ago that everyone is creative one way or another, whatever they do.
But, would it be a fair statement to say that people who are you know whose job description includes the word creativity can be a little bit of a different challenge that they’re not quite as structured in their thinking sometimes, and they are easily distracted, shall we say? And a few things like that? Can you speak to any specific challenges in managing creative people?
And what you’re what solutions you’ve come up with?
Um, yeah, it’s probably less structured in terms of my thoughts then then perhaps you’d like, so you might need to wind me in. What is something, yeah, but it says nothing farts. A jewel that was good then I’ll know to talk more about that. And let’s about other things but.
The.
I I’ve.
Really, really enjoyed working with creative people overall because I think it just keeps you mentally so limber.
And just to be delighted, I mean, you talk about joy and work and it’s people that have invested.
So much of themselves, and maybe that’s perhaps.
The single biggest difference that I would see between the average person in a business and somebody who is quote a creative. And that’s why I try and blur those lines a little bit because I think it’s both healthy and essential for people to be more creative in each role.
That they have.
But what, what? A stereotypical creative person.
They’re not just for filling a project or an assignment, they’re giving you a piece of themselves because they sat.
And they thought, and they’ve pondered things through, and they’re pouring themselves into this, and again, assuming that they understand where they fit into the larger big picture and how what they’re developing or contributing to will be used.
And really, establishing that front and making sure that their complete clarity and buy in and their questions can be asked and answered.
You can’t just get fantastic work from them.
And so.
I think that it’s that willingness to invest upfront to be very clear, to be communicative, to understand that they playing a central role, whether that’s in the writing. Certainly the design, the video, the I mean.
Never at any time in history.
Have creative people been needed more than they are now? Never it’s this is single most important time because it’s so easy now.
To have bad creative everybody has access to.
Video software everybody has access to something like a Canva where they can go in and develop things.
But the people that really drive and think of your favorite brand. Think of your favorite advertisement thing that you interact.
A creative person did that.
And it likely wasn’t accidental.
It was much more likely that.
That person or group or team really understood how they contributed to the success of how somebody would interact or use or.
Touch, View or anything else like that.
So I don’t know if that completely answered your question, Frank.
Well, I’m entirely interested in your thoughts, your perspective. You know what you do, what you don’t do? I like if I could pull.
Paraphrase what I would take from that as a central nugget is that perhaps as poor creative people more than others. It’s essential for them to understand the role they play in the entire process and the importance of it is that a fair statement.
Yeah, they certainly don’t work in silence, but again, where I’ve seen projects that it failed. It’s like it’s largely been because.
There’s not been clarity. The creative brief. For instance, I I don’t know how often you ran into my creative brief when we work together, but to.
Me that yeah well it was. Anybody who.
Initiated a project.
Really had to be thoughtful with their creative brief and then had to, either with someone from the marketing Department and I’m talking about from sales. Or you know, from IT or others that that needed something.
It was you’ve got to be thoughtful enough and spend some time on this creative brief to make sure that it’s completely clear.
And so I’ve since adapted that as I you know, taking over operations at another company and other management responsibilities.
It’s something that that scales and is needed. People have got to be clear on what they’re doing and how they can.
The role that they play or in the in the project, or certain, absolutely as.
With their quote job title, they have to understand what their job does, and so it would be to the point of.
If somebody was.
Just.
Designing a flyer that would go in an order, you know just something that gets thrown into the order.
It would be this is what I want to have happen.
And what’s the headline that’s going to do that? And what’s the image? And what action do we want them to take?
And so going back to the 4th core value of doing great work.
If this is the Third flyer.
You’re designing this week.
How can you make this Third Flyer the very best? How can it be the only flyer that you’re going to include in your portfolio so that you can then tell something?
This is what this simple modest flyer did.
This is what the objective was, and here was the outcome.
And great, I think so much more satisfaction. It comes from that when people understand that the.
Role that they play.
I you know you just talked about the artist portfolio, the graphic artist portfolio.
And for those who don’t know what that is, it’s basically their resume.
You know, here’s here. The brochures I’ve created the posters, the Flyers, the websites that what have you and what that speaks to inherently is. They’re not going to work for you, Joel. For the rest of their lives, and so that’s something I stress in my course, which is that all relationships are temporary. And yet.
Most managers want to hold onto you or.
The throat and make sure you’re not going anywhere, because if you’re good because they you know they just fear the loss they fear having to go through the process of hiring, recruiting on boarding and whatever.
And yet the approach I try to spouses try to do everything you can to keep him as long as you can and to get as much value from the relationship as possible. Would it be fair to say that Joel Bikman’s approach is I want what’s ever best for you, even if that means you’re going to move on to another company. This I’m putting words in your mouth, but am I doing a good job of it?
Yeah, you are. You’re putting it better than I probably could, but you know, I think that core Frankie is.
From my perspective is exactly right.
If first and foremost, you believe that people have value as an individual and as a professional, you always want what is best for them. And by helping them to be as successful as possible.
You’re almost guaranteeing that your team is going to be as successful as possible and it becomes an environment where people want to work. So that’s certainly something that speaks to retention is when people feel respected. People feel valuable. People feel that they’re making a real difference and.
That kind of environment people want to stay.
Um?
However, I’m not naive, especially when you’re dealing with. I come from an advertising agency background initially.
And the way that you get promoted in the way that you get more money is you jump. You jump to different agencies, and so it wasn’t uncommon for people to skip from agency to agency every 18.
24 months.
And so that was my upbringing professionally.
And so I didn’t have the luxury of of trying to think of people keeping people for a long period of time, and so perhaps that’s one of the fortunate things. I guess if there if this is a virtue.
It’s that understanding that people can do amazing work, and if they know.
Not to over speak to this, but if they know what role they’re playing and they have the needed resources and expectations and objectives are clear.
That will be good for them and it will be good for me.
And it will be good for the company. And So what I often made to teams.
And I meet with my direct reports once a week. I do one on one every single week and those times are absolutely sacred. Everything else moves except for one times. And then I meet with anybody who would report it to.
Into me in any way, shape or form we meet once a month and those are fun meetings and those are educational meetings.
And so it’s.
It’s really trying to make sure that people have great potential and great opportunities because they can either.
What?
In other words, we’re not going to retire one glorious Golden Watch ceremony. It’s just simply not going to happen.
And so for me it was. It’s really important that when people.
Ultimately, have a better opportunity, whether that’s to be promoted within the company, and that’s certainly a retention approach and something that I’ve looked at and counseled with people that have reported either directly to me or somewhere in the organization. But hey, what’s next for you? Especially when these were high performers that I I knew.
To do more.
Um, it was. How do we retain them and how do we give them greater and better opportunity because.
If the company is not providing them, then the fairest and most human thing to do is to help.
Get an opportunity elsewhere.
And there have been a handful of times where I’ve actually counseled people that reported to me where it was. You know, we’re kind of we’re kind of capped out to what we can do for you, but I think that I see with you there. There’s some other potential and other opportunities to do some things.
And even having gone so far as to make some calls on their behalf, not because.
I wanted them gone.
But because they weren’t growing, they were.
Tapped, they were maybe even frustrated, and so there’s different ways to be able to.
To tell that but.
Would you be?
Would you agree with that this can be beneficial, both in retention and in attraction of qualified candidates that they know that they will be able to have a great deal of creative job satisfaction while they are there. But also, it’s not like anybody’s got their thumb on a more.
You know anything else that you want? What’s best for them? I would imagine sort of in the community, the word gets out. Hey Joel’s a good guy to work for. And you know, if you get an opportunity.
To come to his company and report to him, you really ought to take him up on it. Do you think it supports both attraction and retention?
Yeah, I.
I’ve probably not have not articulated as well as you did an. I’ve probably not thought of it. Kind of is like a quid pro quo. Kind of a approach either, but I’ve certainly articulated and thought that.
We can either let people or we can either.
So I want to make sure I phrase this problem people are that are going to leave our company. They can either leave you as ambassadors or they can leave as terrorists.
And have some do you say?
Yeah, terrorists, how can you think about that in terms of like a brand, right? Well accompanies a brand and a team is a Brandon.
Each one of us have the potential to be a brand.
In terms of how other people envision us, and that’s my definition of a brand, is what other people think of you.
And so.
If people have had a great experience, they’re going to go out and they’re going to espouse the virtues of the company that they work for, and they’re going to either help.
Build the that brand of that company or they’re going to destroy it and I have not wanted people to ever leave.
A company that I worked for or that certainly that reported into me.
Feeling that.
That it was a bad situation. Now of course, and I don’t mean to be Pollyannaish or.
You know to mix my metaphors, you know, to say I have a perfect batting average. I’ve made a lot of mistakes. I’ve made hiring mistakes, and I’ve held on to people for too long.
Um, that weren’t happy and that weren’t satisfied, or that I had failed in some way and the relationship had gone South. But for the most part.
It’s.
Treating people the right brain, giving them opportunities for success so that when they eventually lean, they think on it fondly and will speak fondly about it. And there’s not immediate benefit for that.
But
I think anybody who.
Only thinks short-term is really robbing themselves. Their businesses under people.
Yeah, I could not agree more with that and I would love to speak to you for about another 4 hours just about employer branding. I think it would be fascinating.
Yeah, I like the way you put it that a brand is what other people think of you.
That’s great. Well, I’ve taken a lot of your time here today. Joe and I appreciate all that you’ve shared. But before I let you go, I want to ask you for people who have been watching or listening.
If they truly do see the value of becoming a better manager and they want to commit to developing it as a skill, what resources could you recommend?
We talked about Christians.
Then and there was a guy you talked to me about D Hawk. Any books training. You know, whatever what would you recommend as a best next step if they want to develop?
Well, First off, I think it’s being willing to try and continue to learn and improve.
And as I’ve shared.
I think I do a lot of things tomorrow and I have an average, fortunate enough to have some good mentors and people that care about me, including family.
Who have kindly?
Told me when I’ve fallen short and I call shortly so they have ample opportunities. Correct me and so I think that there is some kind of professional humility where you can.
Understand that you’re capable. Understand that you’re good at some things, but also that you can improve.
And I, I guess I’ve been fortunate that I’ve had lots of opportunities to improve, and so I think that’s probably first step. The second is.
To just read a lot and to talk to smarter people than you.
I’ve been pretty unafraid in My career just call people up, even those that I don’t know and just say you’re better at this than I am. I’d really like to learn more about this.
And for the most part people, even competitors are really generous.
When you’re sincere.
I think that if it comes across poorly, that would be.
Taking differently, of course.
But it’s being unafraid to ask questions.
People that have been there before.
And I’ve been very fortunate again to have people that that are generous in that regard, and I I tried generous if somebody ever asks or wants to have to learn from anything that I’ve done or experienced.
But to be completely candid in the board, now as much as possible.
There are a couple of documents that are I go back and I refer to have a.
The one on more of a human side of things is that Clayton Christiansen article in the book, and that which I can’t recommend highly enough, which is how will you measure your life?
Clayton Christiansen is one of my favorite business thinkers, period, but it wasn’t.
Then I’ve read everything that he’s read but his article. My thinking was in. It was probably a decade ago. Men’s book, which came out a year or two later.
Was just so profoundly moving.
Because he’s the one who talked about management as being a virtuous discipline, something I think he called it the noblest profession. And I believe it has that function.
And then the second thing is Dee Hock.
And that’s DEE HOCK.
And he’s.
The guy that really turned visa into the behemoth that it is today and I won’t get into his back story but very impressive man. An incredible thinker.
But
Probably the most influential single document.
Was it was a some nation of some of the Hawks?
Best sayings and philosophes. Which if you print it out it’s a page and a half about single-spaced page and a half.
And it was exerted in.
Fast Company in 1996 I think it.
Was the October.
Addition.
But you can go in and just Google Di hoc on management. It’s a paid in half.
And it and I have a copy of it, and anybody who reports to me wherever who reports into my organization, gets a copy of it.
At a minimum, so they know what kind of psychosis they’re dealing with.
Me but also weekly.
I don’t understand it, but at least I know where he’s coming from now that’s right. So he goes. He in this page.
And a half. It’s everything from leadership and I’ll just read it quickly.
Which is make a careful. This is a short color course of your you’re getting your doctorate in leadership.
As he says.
And it’s simple.
Make a careful list of all things done to you that you aboard.
Don’t do them to others, ever.
Make another list of things done for you that you love.
Do them for others.
Always.
Well, that’s a pretty provocative statement, and it’s not something that you’re going to be perfect at right away. And then everything can go.
Talks about.
That about how to hire.
And compensation talks about form and substance. He talks about creativity, which his approach to creativity dramatically influenced my approach to managing created.
This was the CEO of a.
Visa who talked about creativity and then leadership about?
But the essentials of it, if you look for read.
It’s invest 40 at least.
20% of your time managing yourself.
And as 30% of your time managing.
Invest 15% managing your peers and then as he said, the rest of the time managing which is at most 15% managing as he calls it, your mislabeled subordinates. For if you don’t understand that you need to serve them.
Then you’ve missed it. All else is trivia. If you’ve missed that and so.
That document I refer to it often. Again, it’s about a page and a half.
I’ll, I’ll put a link to that and also to Christianson Resources in the show notes for this program.
That’d be great. Yeah, you don’t need me rambling on and on about it, but those two documents I think if the average person would part and think about them and ponder on them.
I think it would make a significant difference. I don’t think that I’m that unique. I’ve had enough people come back to me over the years and said, boy, that one document really made it made a big impact.
I firmly believe it. I I practice it imperfectly, but I believe in it and trust it implicitly.
Joel, thank you so much for taking the time to share all of this knowledge with us today.
Absolute pleasure, Frank
Thanks again to Joel Beckman and thank you for joining us until next time I’m Frank Felker, saying, I’ll see you on the radio.
