Hiring and managing remote workers has suddenly become a critical challenge for businesses of all sizes and across a wide range of industries.
That’s why I asked Justin Brown, co-founder of Primal Video, a video training and resources firm located in Brisbane, Australia, to join me for a conversation on Radio Free Enterprise.
Justin and his brother (and co-founder) Mike promote their business exclusively on YouTube. They have produced 328 videos to date, that have attracted over 700,000 subscribers and millions of views.
For the past several years, virtually all of their video production and business administration work has been performed by remote workers in other countries, primarily the Philippines.
In this conversation, I ask Justin to share how he sources and vets highly-productive remote workers, manages them on an ongoing basis, and keeps them on his team for years to come.
What follows is a computer-generated transcription of our entire conversation. Please excuse any typos!
Frank Felker 00:22
Thank you, Dude Walker. Yes, indeed, I am Frank. Welcome back to Radio Free Enterprise. My guest today is Justin Brown. Justin is the co-founder of Primal Video, a video training and resources company located in Brisbane, Australia. Justin, welcome to the program.
Justin Brown 00:41
Thank you very much for having me on.
Frank Felker 00:42
I really appreciate you taking the time to be here today, I think you’ve got some important information to share. Now, I was fortunate enough to study under you for several months, I was looking to up my game in terms of shooting video and editing video, distributing video and marketing with video. And I’ve learned a lot from you. But I also learned something I hadn’t expected that I think is really important right now for virtually every employer in the world. And that has to do with hiring, vetting, managing, and retaining remote workers, I hadn’t expected to see that I realized what value was to me at that time, pre pandemic. And it recently occurred to me that what you know, and what you have to share could really be valuable for just about every business owner. So I’d like to start with this. Let’s go back to pre-pandemic, you know, these many months ago last year. What was Primal Video at that time? What was your business model? And? And what were you doing to help people?
Justin Brown 01:45
Yeah, perfect. So um, my business is called Primal Video. And I run that with my brother Mike. And what we essentially do there is help people grow an audience and scale their revenue with online video. So we’re all told in digital marketing these days, that video is the best way to get your message out to get your voice out and start to build an audience. But there’s a lot of stuff that comes up for people you know, you’ve got to get on camera, you’ve got to then work out how to edit or work out how you can get videos produced, then you’ve actually got to get views on those videos and make them so people can find them. And then beyond that is the revenue side. How do you guarantee that they’re how do you set it up so that there is a flow through into your business, or directly into dollars off the back of those off the back of those videos? That’s essentially what we teach. My background is in production. I’ve got documentaries on Netflix and had some amazing opportunity to work with some really inspirational, really crazy people as well, big wave surfers and free divers and things. So I like that my day at work. Now helping people through YouTube and online is a lot safer than it used to be doing some of that crazy stuff. But yeah, that’s what we do we help people grow an audience and scale their revenue with online video.
Frank Felker 02:56
Great. That’s very clear. And I appreciate how clear you are able to communicate that. So that’s what you do. And that’s what you did for me, you helped me become a better video producer, editor, shooter, etc. Now I want to then turn to the whole idea of remote workers. How long ago? I would stop for a second. Let me let me ask you this question and give it a little add on how long ago did you hire your first worker? And what were the trepidations you were experiencing? When you were considering the idea of hiring your first remote worker?
Justin Brown 03:30
This is a great question because as a video editor, the thought of outsourcing video editing was something I definitely struggled with. Now, before we had Primal Video, we did actually have a video production company where I was outsourcing editing, we were helping mass produce real estate videos for one side of the company. And for that we actually had a team of 37 remote video editors. So we had to make sure that we had a process to find people that were able to follow a process. And as a secondary, could also edit videos are big, the biggest mistake that a lot of people have when they start to hire a video editor is don’t just look for the best editors. But it’s actually not what you want. You want someone that’s going to do what you want, excuse me, you want someone’s going to follow a process. And as a bonus, can also edit really well and efficiently. So that’s kind of what set us off on this trajectory of this is possible and we can do it at scale. But what came up for me was actually bringing someone in to edit my own videos. Now we’ve had our YouTube channel for over five years now. Just producing one video a week and we’ve had some good success with that. But I actually haven’t edited one of our YouTube videos in it will be coming up on three years now. And that was the scariest thing for me to hand over. So it is possible and yes, that is what we teach them what we help people with as well.
Frank Felker 04:51
What were you afraid was going to go wrong? When you handed over these projects to somebody who was going to work on it remotely?
Justin Brown 04:59
Well, I mean, it The end of the day, it’s my face on the video, it’s insane. For anyone else out there that’s considering outsourcing like this, we don’t want to not be putting our best foot forward, one of the biggest fears that people have is how they’ll come across and how they look on camera and handing over a piece of that, especially the editing piece. It could be seen as a risk or, or too much effort as well. I mean, the one of the biggest things that I was telling myself was, I can edit, I’ve been teaching people to edit who better to edit my videos down than me, I find the one that’s filming them, I know where I’ve made mistakes, I know what my intention was when I was filming it. So it’s just going to be quicker for me to do it. But now looking back at that, I mean, I pushed back with every excuse under the sun as to why it would work and why it was just better for me to do it. But in actual fact, not having done it for the last three years, it’s just freed me up immensely. So I now have the time to work on the business end with our members. Instead of having to worry about producing a video every week and getting that you know, on that hamster wheel of, you know, time sunk in editing. But if anything else, it’s also bought in a lot more creativity with the editors that we’re working with. So they have a set template, which is do this, do this, do this. And we can talk through what specific of a template can look like. But then get creative on top of that template. So we’ve at least got a baseline that every video is going to meet that baseline, and then the creativity can come in on top of that. And I think that’s probably the biggest thing that I struggled with. And also the biggest thing that where we see a lot of people struggle with
Frank Felker 06:32
now, you don’t, if I could paraphrase what you just said, It almost seems as though your willingness and ability to outsource this task has allowed you to spend more time working on your business instead of in your business. Would that be an apt? description?
Justin Brown 06:48
Yes. 100% Yes. And this is something that I think that a lot of people would hold on to. And and this could be one of the easiest things that you actually outsource to get some of your time back.
Frank Felker 06:58
Video editing, you mean,
Justin Brown 07:01
video editing? Yes.
Frank Felker 07:02
Well, and that’s one of the things we need to keep in mind is we’re talking to people who aren’t outsourcing video editing, and are trying to figure out how to, you know, hire and train people doing other things. But nonetheless, I think your comparison and analogy is direct to almost any other task, if you will skilled a task. And I think a lot of people also are unwilling to let go, even if they had workers who were sitting there in the right and the desk right next to them, they’re unwilling to let people work. How can you describe sort of at an emotional level? What you know what kind of butterflies you were feeling, like what you thought might go wrong? And then how surprised are ways that you were surprised that it didn’t go wrong?
Justin Brown 07:45
So I guess the approach that we had with this was, let’s give it a go. We knew that it’s possible to work with remote people, we knew that it was worst possible to have someone edit down our videos, but it was really sort of the baby steps. what’s something that I could see as a win as the first phase of us building out this process to help people outsource their editing. So what was that? If it takes me two hours to film a video? What if I just got someone just to remove all of those bad takes, so that I’m not working with two hours of footage, I’m just polishing up the good text, which would be great minutes’ worth of footage. So we don’t have to just say, look, here it is, and expect something perfect back. A lot of mistakes that with this is it comes down to communication. And you actually understanding what you want your editor or your remote worker to actually do. So that communication is where we see a lot of people fall down with that. So it was like, What is the lowest level that we can get, or the easiest project that we can get someone to do this deal going to be of benefit and cutting two hours of footage down to 15. That’s actually a really big-time saver in itself. And you can pick up remote workers in places like the Philippines for a little as three to $7 us an hour. So you look at that say how many hours would it take someone to cut down my two hours to 13 minutes or 15 minutes, it’s probably worth it for the cost of a cup of coffee or something like that. So that’s where we started. And that was definitely something that ticked the box for me, I could see that this was already going to be of benefit. So on an emotional level. That was that was a that was a big win. And then it’s going to take this to the next level.
Frank Felker 09:19
That’s great. Now as I say I learned a tremendous amount from you. There was a whole section and segment on this topic. Could you sort of thumbnail for us what it is that you teach people who come to you for help with your online courses and such?
Justin Brown 09:37
Yeah, so we have our Primal Video accelerator program. And in that we break our content down into three key areas. The first one is video creation. And that’s really where a lot of people find us is that they’ll want to learn how to up their video game. I mean, we originally started back as video editing coach before Primal Video. That’s not just the editing piece that people need help with. If you’re not you know leveling up across All the areas across your filming, it’s actually going to make your editing harder. So we focus a lot on the video creation. Also on growing an audience, which is you know how to build your audience on YouTube, how to get views and subscribers, and obviously flow through into clients and customers as well. And then the third pillar that we focus on is scale your revenue. And that’s where you can implement systems to help you grow as your audience grows. So, things like affiliate revenue, we dive deep into that into email marketing strategies, and how we grow our email list off the back of our YouTube channel, organically without running any paid ads, but also in there, that’s where we also have things like the how to find it on board and outsource to video editor to join your team to free up your time as well. So it really falls down to those three pillars.
Frank Felker 10:45
Well, and that’s what I’d like to dig into, within that module on how to hire these remote workers, who were very specific and organized in the presentation of the information about how you advertise and what you look for, and the responses to the advertisements as part of the vetting process and how you give like a test to people and you look for, as you said before, not just how they edit, but how they follow directions and so forth. Could you speak to that a little bit for us?
Justin Brown 11:17
Yeah, definitely. I mean, that that was probably one of the biggest shifts after going through. And originally having the business I had 37 video editors, it really comes down to a process and a system. And that’s what we try to look at across the board for creation of videos for growing your audience on YouTube, right through to the revenue side and outsourcing. So we do to give you an example of what’s in the training, we actually take them through, like we give you our job description. And there might be six questions that we ask. Now if someone applies for a job and doesn’t answer all six questions. I don’t care how good their video editing capabilities aren’t, they haven’t followed the process. That’s why I won’t even give it a look in. So you might find that you put this job ad up and you could get 100 people apply it, some people will freak out at that point, I think I’ve got 100 applicants to go through applications to go through, you can be able to go through them really quickly and see who has answered all of these six questions. And you’ll end up with maybe 15 or 10, whatever it might be, it’s a lot less than that. But then you can dive in and have a look at the editing and those sorts of things and then shortlist it from there. But you want someone who is a process person first to someone who can answer all of your six questions if they’ve missed one. Again, they’re not considered. And that’s because you don’t want to have that communication issue down the track, where you’ve asked for something, can you change this text to this? Can you bring up some a graphic or B roll at this specific time, if you’re giving them a list of tasks to do to change or to update your videos, you want to know that they’re going to go and do it. And that’s why we start back in the interview process of getting the right people on board to save those headaches down the track.
Frank Felker 12:53
So excellent. And I like how you start with the job description. And that you start engaging with them and trying to figure out exactly who you’re working with, right from the beginning. Because otherwise, as you mentioned, you’ll be wasting a lot of time going through a lot of applications that really don’t deserve your consideration.
Justin Brown 13:10
Now another thing, an interesting one, I’m sorry to cut, no, please get an interesting one. Because video editing web is one of the things that it’s a creative thing, you give the same piece of footage to 10 people, you’re likely going to get 10 totally different videos back. So this is where it’s really about that process person can they follow instructions, but then it also comes down to you. You need to be able to give them clear enough instructions, or at least a guideline of what you’re after. If you don’t have any videos and you’re going to start outsourcing. First off, give examples of the videos that you like and say what you like about it, it’s all about this communication, how do I get the person that’s going to be working with me up to speed as fast as possible? So that’s why the process and asking those questions is so important. Because you don’t want a really creative person that’s going to miss stuff that you’re asking for.
Frank Felker 14:02
Now, do you Is there anything that you do on an ongoing basis to sort of track how much work they’re doing? Or whether they’re doing well? Or, you know, the whole thing that worries most managers is especially micromanagers. is you know, how do I know they’re not screwing off all day and, you know, actually doing what they’re supposed to be doing? What sort of management tools do you use for this, Justin?
Justin Brown 14:29
So for this type for time, management’s probably the big one there, we will give them in the interview process, a hard limit and say, I’m going to give you it to those that make it through to the to the test project. We’ll give them a hard limit. So I want you to edit this video down. If you reach six hours, I want you to stop and there’s no right or wrong. This is a gauge of how much work they’re going to do in their time. Some people will totally finish the task in that amount of time others won’t. But you’ll be able to see their thought process by looking at their video and where they got to And obviously, it’s a talking point, then when you jump on a call with them, how did you find it? What were you needing from me? Where was this time spent, so you can get an insight into how they’re going to work. Now, I don’t want to be micromanaging anyone, I think that’s a big time sink. So for us, it’s almost like the trust factor in there as well. Once you get to the right person, and you’ve gone, you’ve gone through a couple of videos, and you can gauge how long per video, then how long also means how much per video so you can justify then the cost for each video to be produced. But it’s also going to come down to the time that the video will take. So I’m monitoring each video that comes back through I asked our editors to provide the name of the video and how many hours it took them. And it’s just so that I can keep tabs and say, Well, why did that one take eight hours, whereas the next one took an hour and a half to edit. And it could be that I’ve made way more mistakes. Or it could be that that type of video needed a lot more B roll or overlay footage for them to go and collect from stock video sites or something like that. So it’s never that I’m questioning or micromanaging that time. It’s more so about B and the expectations and how do I help them get what they need easier, so that we’re not wasting a lot of time on either side?
Frank Felker 16:14
Well, you clearly follow what’s called the Y style of management, which is how could I have done better? What resources could I have provided? Maybe I should have trained them on, you know, After Effects more or something like that, rather than what’s going on with that guy, you know, which is the style of management, and that many managers follow. Now, how about this? Have you found that competition for these remote workers Services has increased? Since the advent of the pandemic? are they finding more opportunities to do remote work, making it more difficult for you to find the right person?
Justin Brown 16:52
To be honest, I haven’t really found that at all. I think there’s still a massive opportunity on both sides. If you’re looking to find someone to come and work with you, and we need your team. There’s probably if anything more people around now, and more options, but I don’t think that’s even driven up the price. Because on Yeah, there’s more people looking but there’s also more people available to work. So I don’t think that’s really changed the market at all. Now for us. We’ve tried and experimented with a lot of different online services to find people. And the one that we keep coming back to is online jobs.ph. It really is. I mean, it works well, because their English in the Philippines is amazing, and a lot more than a lot better than a lot of people give them credit for. So that’s their workers, they love to work. They’re hard workers. It’s not really in their culture to slack off or take sick days and those kinds of things. So yeah, for us, that’s what we’ve found works really well. You know,
Frank Felker 17:47
I remember looking into that that’s online. jobs.ph. Isn’t that correct? What you said just now? Yes, that’s correct. Yeah. And I remember seeing something they said there’s something called the 13th month. Do I have that right? Can you tell us what that is? it?
Justin Brown 18:02
Yeah. So it’s, it’s something I never knew about either. It’s really interesting when you learn the different cultures, and what happens. So instead of having like a bonus at the end of the year, as you would for a regular employee, and not always you could have a regular employee, what they have in the Philippines is called the 13th month, and it’s essentially an extra bonus month worth of pay. Now, obviously, like it’s almost expected, if it’s for a job in the Philippines, like it’s really ingrained in their culture, but from an outsider and an online thing, it’s not, you know, it’s something that but they’re not ever going to ask you for. So it’s more that you’re able to meet demand almost like give them what they would like without them needing to sort of ask for it, they will never ask you for it. But if it was a Filipino job, then then they would be getting it. So it’s those kinds of little things that will make having this person really fit into your team because you understand where they’re coming from. And you’re able to really connect with them and yeah and beat their expectations as well.
Frank Felker 19:05
And anybody watching or listening, if you visit that website, you’ll find that they do offer resources to help you understand little cultural things like this. That will be important to you if you hire remote workers in the Philippines. Justin, we’re just about out of time. I wanted to just kind of boil this down if you could, for you know, the average business owner employer who’s watching or listening to this today. Can you give us like your top three or number one suggestion about how to do a better job how to succeed with a remote worker?
Justin Brown 19:40
I think the biggest thing if I just had to give you one would be communication. And I think that a lot of people no matter what you’re outsourcing, we outsource a lot more than just video editing. we outsource our thumbnail creation and a lot of our graphic design and those sorts of things as well. But the biggest thing would be if there’s any breakdown in in the outcome and they Your expectation of what’s coming back from your editors. If you take responsibility for that, and you say, Alright, this is I clearly haven’t communicated well enough, what I wanted, and you take the time next time to build a process and refine this process over time, then you’ll never have to have that conversation again. But don’t treat it as if this person doesn’t get me this person. You know, there’s must be a screw loose or something missing, because they’re not doing what I’m asking. It could be your communication. So we like to take that approach. If there’s if there’s anything that comes back, how is it? How can we learn from it? How can we make this a lesson and refine this process? So really, anyone can follow this process and we could swap this person out if we needed to or bring in an additional person if we needed to, at any time.
Frank Felker 20:45
That’s great. I really appreciate that. That’s a real nugget. Justin Brown, thank you so much for joining me today.
Justin Brown 20:52
Thank you very much for having me on.
Frank Felker 20:53
Thanks again to Justin and thank you for joining us. Until next time, I’m Frank Felker saying, I’ll see you on the radio.
Dude Walker 21:03
Forgiving your entrepreneurial sins with a gentle wave of his microphone, here’s Frank Felker.
